Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:54 am Assessing Dynasty Quality
With all the alliance-shifting following WDNC's disappearance, there have been a lot of discussions about how to determine the "best" ally. Friendships and loyalty aside (I know they play a part) I figured I'd put out some plain numbers for those who just want to calculate it the right way.
Options to use:
Number of members with negatives
Number of links available to be clicked
Gained / given
Commentary:
The number of negatives is a popular measure, mainly because it is easy to look at and count. But it is very misleading. Consider two 2-person dynasties. Dynasty A has both members showing 1 link. That's 2 links for the dynasty. Dynasty B has one member showing three links and one negative. Although critics might say "50% of their members are negative" in fact that dynasty is showing 3 links for 2 people, a 1.5 link per member ratio. That's an awesome ratio.
Number of links available to be clicked is used by some dynasties, with the assumption that the "extra" links will be put out at "happy hour". However, not all dynasties use the same happy hours, and if most people in another dynasty aren't awake at your happy hour it doesn't matter how many links you show, and likewise for theirs. While it's a useful measure of "potential" it doesn't accurately measure what's really happening on a day to day basis.
Gained/given was talked about quite a bit in a previous thread. There are some advantages and weaknesses. The ratio is useful in an honest comparison of dynasties to each other. The "Gained" represents credits you have lost to that dynasty, the "Given" represents dynasty clicks you have earned, which are the basis of the dynasty competitions. However, a dynasty can get a good gained/given ratio by just not clicking on your links... they aren't hurting you but they aren't helping you either.
Another problem with gained/given is that it is recorded for the long history of an alliance, so it doesn't keep track of later trends if a dynasty improves or declines in performance.
So what's the best? I alluded to it in the first example with negative links: given that we are limited in alliance size by number, the NUMBER of people in the dynasty is the limiting constraint to the best score. And, as mentioned in a previous paragraph, the "Given" number accurately represents the number of links you have actually been able to click on another dynasty. If you measure the day-to-day difference in Given (perhaps between resets or other consistent times of day) that truly represents the daily benefit you gain from that dynasty for your score.
So, the "best" dynasty, from a purely mathematical perspective is the one which maximizes the link-per-member ratio. So all you dynasty stats keepers, you should:
1. Take the daily difference in "given" numbers
2. Divide it by the number of people in that dynasty.
The higher the number, the better the dynasty, at least for your dynasty.... results will be different based on when your members click.
This is a nice option but to whether good?
What if a dynasty in particular happy hour are many links and other dynasty in this happy hour a lot of offline members have? Then it also gained / given is not correct, right?
There is also a topic which is explained.
Age: 51 Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Posts: 1541 Location: Australia
Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:40 pm
Yes Jassej that explains the basic click given/gained, plus its an old topic so cant be reciced. MUSHpark is analyzing the numbers further than explained in the post your suggesting.
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I agree that the current calculation gained not given a real indicator of the state ..
I second the proposal. Since now we have the calculation, the calculation for the dynasty AvgClicks/Day I suggest that in addition to the Dynasty, and have Given-AvgClicks/Day. I think this would be optimal solution for all. Should at least try this method the calculation.
I think this option would encourage many Dynasty to give more links and reinforce many alliances.
_________________ Proud Shogun MMC UBC Dinasty and Ex Kampaku Ex Shogun MMC MOB Dynasty
What if a dynasty in particular happy hour are many links and other dynasty in this happy hour a lot of offline members have?
It is a mistake to only measure "happy hour" links. Sometimes people have multiple links out all day. Sometimes they put them out for two different happy hours (I do that) so if you got them in one happy hour you won't see them in the other one.
But the daily change in "given" does accurately measure how many links that other dynasty is giving you.
Divide by # in that dynasty and you can accurately compare which dynasties are giving you the most links per member.
Unfortunately this most accurate comparison requires taking data over time, and you cannot "instantly" compare dynasties unless Yarold adds a "daily change in given" measure to the statistics.
The given an gained do give you an indication, but if's far from accurate.
I can put out 10 links several hours a day, but if your members are not online at that time or simply don't click my links, you won't see them in the given although I am giving them out for your members to click.
I can also put 10 links in my profile and show only 1 each day, so the number of links in someones profile is also no guarantee.
And the type of links I am showing matters too. Are they CARE links or NON CARE links? If I put 10 CARE links out, but your dynasty is full of members with bad care, they won't see my links, can't click them.... And than you would punish me for that because you think I am not giving enough? That wouldn't be fair at all.
And don't forget the timers some links have...
If I show 10 hotel links or that link that can only clicked once each day.... than what am I giving you?
So as I stated in another topic already, it's an indication and nothing more than that.
Not an accurate way to compare one dynasty with another, unless you have both identical members, with identical type of links who are at the same times online.
Just my 2 cents...
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The given an gained do give you an indication, but if's far from accurate.
I don't think you disagree. You are repeating many of the points I am making.
Tsai wrote:
I can put out 10 links several hours a day, but if your members are not online at that time or simply don't click my links, you won't see them in the given although I am giving them out for your members to click.
Precisely. But if I am comparing your dynasty to another dynasty which is my ally, this is a fair comparison.
If my alliance is made up primarily of people who sleep during 2000 happy hour, then I am going to find a dynasty that does 2000 happy hours a poor ally (for me). They may be a great ally for another dynasty whose members are awake during 2000 happy hour.
Tsai wrote:
I can also put 10 links in my profile and show only 1 each day, so the number of links in someones profile is also no guarantee.
Exactly the point I made. Which is why counting the increase in "given" over a 24 hour period (or 48 or 72 if you want to include a longer average) is a much more accurate way of measuring links that other dynasties are providing you, throughout the day and during "happy hours"
Tsai wrote:
And the type of links I am showing matters too. Are they CARE links or NON CARE links? If I put 10 CARE links out, but your dynasty is full of members with bad care, they won't see my links, can't click them....
That is a good point that I didn't make. However, for most of the top dynasties who have people taking the time to collect statistics to choose allies, the number of members with low CARE is very low.
Tsai wrote:
... it's an indication and nothing more than that.
Not an accurate way to compare one dynasty with another ...
Compairing the daily change in "given" divided by number of members in another dynasty to another dynasty who is your ally is a reasonably accurate head-to-head comparison of two of your allies.
It is not to say how these dynasties would perform for other allies, who may be awake at different hours or have different CARE levels. But it is a very good comparison for YOUR dynasty.
Compairing the daily change in "given" divided by number of members in another dynasty to another dynasty
Yes Daily change 'given' but no divided by number of members.
This would caused additional complications calculation given dynasty. All are right and no one is right, if understand. It is true that the current calculation Given / gained dynasty is not competent.Best calculation would be the only 'daily given'THIS
The only possible calculation that shows the real state of Daily given and AVG given dynasty.
_________________ Proud Shogun MMC UBC Dinasty and Ex Kampaku Ex Shogun MMC MOB Dynasty
Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:16 am Re: Assessing Dynasty Quality
MUSHpark wrote:
With all the alliance-shifting following WDNC's disappearance, there have been a lot of discussions about how to determine the "best" ally.
One of the things that hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread is grants of credits. Our Dynasty has gifted a number of thousands of credits to our allies this year, both for maintaining a negative free Dynasty, and for assistance in training their new people and keeping them positive. This will never show up on our gained/given.
Age: 56 Joined: 10 Mar 2007 Posts: 1937 Location: Netherlands
Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:28 am Re: Assessing Dynasty Quality
DaBabes City wrote:
MUSHpark wrote:
With all the alliance-shifting following WDNC's disappearance, there have been a lot of discussions about how to determine the "best" ally.
One of the things that hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread is grants of credits. Our Dynasty has gifted a number of thousands of credits to our allies this year, both for maintaining a negative free Dynasty, and for assistance in training their new people and keeping them positive. This will never show up on our gained/given.
Yes that is what we do also, give lots of credits to new members who are standing first days negative but still wanted to learn.
We also give credits to alliance dynastys, who are trying to get better members with no negatives.
But i think all top dynastys are doing that, and we will not see it, but is that necessary.
When a allie drop you on numbers given/gain they are not very smart I think, but thats just my thought.
Of course I give a lot of credit for the new members but that did not with gained / given.
I gained / given only shows which dynasty is active in click!
And I never quit my ally because gained / given!
That is my opinion.
Joined: 09 Jun 2008 Posts: 241 Location: North Carolina, USA
Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:26 pm
Gained/given is one factor but IMHO it's only a small factor.
I like to look at a dynasty as a whole --taking into account how they deal with/train ( or in some cases, don't deal with) new members, are they adding more members who are minus when they already have a bunch of minus who are only taking up my precious ally space? As pointed out by DaBabe & Ferrari--helping your allies be better allies is also a large part in a decision whether an ally is "quality" & worthy of the space they take up. If we look at ourselves to see how we can be better for the other person rather than just looking at only their value to us, I believe it's much nicer. Sometimes it doesn't work well because some don't think the same way & you get taken advantage of....but what goes around, comes around--you can't escape karma
That being said, of course we would all love to be able to click over 1000 every day, but that's not everything in my book. Having fun along the way and not a lot of drama is worth more than clicks.
Age: 51 Joined: 03 Jan 2009 Posts: 57 Location: Nice, France
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:57 am
zvonimir wrote:
I agree that the current calculation gained not given a real indicator of the state ..
I second the proposal. Since now we have the calculation, the calculation for the dynasty AvgClicks/Day I suggest that in addition to the Dynasty, and have Given-AvgClicks/Day. I think this would be optimal solution for all. Should at least try this method the calculation.
I think this option would encourage many Dynasty to give more links and reinforce many alliances.
I fully agree with Zvonimir as I already mentionned here, where I suggested even more:
the performance indicator of a member or a dynasty should be the sum of the clicks given and the clicks received. (divided by 2 if you want to compare with the current system)
The ability to be clicked matters as much as that to click in the exchange process.
Regarding the last three posts above, nobody seems to have dropped an ally because of a bad gained/given ratio, that's fine (and btw that was not the reason given by RMV to J4F, a good one though as the ratio was 1.17, yes 117%), but who ever dropped an ally with a good gained/given ratio?
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