Bruno73 - Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:26 pm Post subject: Balancing clicks done and received With the new scoring system balancing clicks done and received has become a new issue for individual members as well as for dynasties in order to raise their MinAvg. Ideally there should be as many clicks received than done. More clicks done and the Min(imum) is then equal to the number of clicks received. More clicks received and the Min is then equal to the number of clicks done. Here are graphics for the top 16 dynasties showing the daily difference between total clicks received and done. Positive value means too many clicks received while negative value means not enough clicks received. 
eirien - Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:36 am Interesting... Thanks for these. Xazy - Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:15 am do these show just dynasty clicks, or is it all clicks? Yarold - Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:20 pm the unreadable graph Jeanne - Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:50 pm Nice - did you knit that yourself Stan? Bruno73 - Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:52 pm
Total Clicks Received - Total Clicks Done (so all) Jeanne - Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:37 pm Well the numbers are not surprising. Unless you are in a dynasty with 55-60 members that actually hs a chance to go somewhere .... why bother about score/balance? Why not go into a clicking frenzy and build up credits? For most dynasties there's no incentive to even try and balance the score. Not to mention the many who doesn't understand the system. Bruno73 - Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:09 am
The dynasty size argument is pointless here. As everyone can see, there are big dynasties with negative (gained/given=received/done) balance and small ones with positive balance. I really don't know why you're complaining all the time about the big dynasties... what are you waiting to make yours grow if there is an advantage?
Because it reflects the fairness of the link exchange process.
Because this is nonsense. Built up credits are totally of no use as far as link exchange is concerned. Credits are made to have links clicked and nothing else. By the way, note that if you build up credits, you don't show your links and you prevent the others from clicking you frenzy... and then they cannot show you their links in return. Therefore, building up credits is blocking the link exchanges.
What are they waiting for? My graphics can help them to realize how they are doing good or not, if they should show more links or not. That was my purpose and my wish is of course to make my allies balance their clicks done and received, for our common interest.
Maybe this forum is a good place to explain it? Or you could send mails to your members. Jeanne - Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:39 am No the size argument is not pointless - it is a fact that if there is no goal to fight for then there's very little incentive to make a high score. You must have seen that statement a lot of times here in forum, there are many who doesn't care about score or rank and for most of the dynasties it is a fact they have no part in the competition for rank. I am not complaining about large dynasties I am complaining about the unfair system that only allows large dynasties to compete. What will it take to get through to you that some dynasties does not want to be large but still would like to have an option to compete if they so wish? We are many who actually enjoy being in a smaller dynasty, who has chosen a smaller dynasty rather than a larger ...tho we would like to be able to compete. For most newbies or teenagers building up credits is a rush - they have struggled on main to stay positive clicking members with a huge amount of credits - then they join a dynasty and whoa they suddenly have +credits and they can build up ..... that's more fun for them than keeping an eye on the balance of done/given clicks. I show my 1 real link all day long and some of my fake links in dynasty when I have clicked more than received - I balance ...in fact most days I have received more than done and my post was not about me - it was my view of the score system and it's effects. As for watching your graphics to realize if they are doing good or not .... Why should they want to "do good" as long as they get their links clicked and stay positive ... why want more? Explaining the system in forum? you know that only a handful of members per dynasty read the forum. I believe my members do understand the system, they have received mails for every change - again: I wasn't talking about me or my dynasty. Being a member here should be about having fun - not about watching graphics and balancing scores - that's a job not a game. Bruno73 - Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:08 am The new scoring system says: "be clicked as much as you click". It is easy to understand for anyone. Either you care and try, or you don't care and you can build up credits and complete less link exchanges. That is your right too. But sorry you cannot anymore build up credits AND be ranked at the top. Just because this kind of behaviour is against link exchange. It is moreover cheap and selfish ("I wanna click tons of links but I won't show mine"). As you gave no further argument, I maintain that the size argument is pointless regarding the clicks balance (i.e. the subject of this topic). Each member is individually concerned. Dynasties are concerned too, whatever their size, if they feel concerned about it. Regarding the competition, the new scoring system is not to blame as it didn't affect much the rankings, did it? Now if you'd like a competition where all dynasties have the same chance, why not but this would be the death of the large dynasties and for sure nobody would accept and train newbies anymore. Is that what you want? Regarding my graphics, nobody forces you to watch them. You're talking about having fun, but you're talking about competition too. Graphics are for those interested and having fun in the competition. Ferrari - Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:20 am
Sorry Jeanne if my dynasty dos wrong (please tell me) i totally not understand the new system, I think my first shogun (left hand) niinamaa Understand a lot and she try to explained me but still I am so confused. The scoring system for the dynastys places i also not understand, we where 5th and now 4th but why? i have no idea. Sorry i know this sounds very blond, but i have a excuse.... I am blond Jeanne - Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:33 am LOL Marga - you should ask Bruno since the system is his idea, thank you for showing him that it is not just plain to understand for everyone 
Bruno: you act like a fanatic idealist - you will not understand anybody who doesn't see things like you do so I find it pointless to try and re-explain what I mean - I know I have answered most of your arguments already in other posts and I wont repeat myself only say this: RMV had 80 members and all dyns had newbies when we had Dyn-ave as score/ranking system. Edit: Ok I am a woman ... I can't shut up
You can never get a 1 click for a click. Some members come here with 1 minicity link. Others come with 5 Valenths links. To make an even exchange the minicity link holder should make 4 fake links? Is that fair to ask of anybody just to fulfill your dream of an even exchange rate? DemonicJ - Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:17 am You have all walked around the (what I think is) big flaw is this system. If everyone tried to balance there will be less links to click! All those receiving more clicks than they click, to balance, would have to show less links!! Those that can click more than they receive, still havent changed (the credit hoarders). So as we go further down the track & the more people try to balance the less links become available. Jeanne - Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:48 am No I said that in another thread a while ago: Less links are shown, even tho I do make most clicks I only show half my links now but still balance done/received. Another thing wrong is the members with only 1 link who are being made out as "immoral" when clicking what is before them and called "bad exchangers" - I can't believe this was the idea with an exchange site? Ferrari - Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:53 am I show more than i click, Is that a problem? I think its good for my members and allies they can click. All links my members click is good for my dynasty? or not? Or is it better to find a ballance and show less? Please tell me Jeanne. DemonicJ - Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:58 am
If they have 1 link & they balance, why would they be bad exchangers? I would think that would be the sign of a good exchanger, balancing, regardless of how many links. Im now balancing my exchange's but its at the cost of showing extra links as often as I used to. Jeanne - Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:32 am I am talking about the 1 link holder who click more than he/she get clicked not with the intention to horde credits but just clicking the links that appear while showing his/her link. I used to show all my extra links limit 10, 2-3 times every HH - now I rarely show more than 4-5 of my links and I balance - most days I receive more than I click! Marga: The score system say you only get score for the lowest number of your clicks done/received - so if you show more than you click you are loosing credits but yes feeding your dynasty and allies (as one of those I say thank you  )
eirien - Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:34 am
Yes, both Jeanne and I have said this before in the forums - this system eventually will discourage putting up more links. I said that during the week when I'm at work I can only click the equivalent of having just one link in Dynasty. The HHs are done by the time I get home and I'm not in the right timezone to get to click people before some of them go neg. Therefore, even though I have the credits to support more links, why should I show more links than I can click? I'm still waiting on an answer for that one. 
[/i] Annie - Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:50 am It is a viscious circle the new rules. I must wait for others to show links BEFORE I can show extras. If only a few people show extra links, I cannot afford to show mine. However if everyone thinks like this then it's correct, overall there will be less links. Saying that, I think with RMV and La Brute trying to balance their overall dynasty stats and the big players showing like crazy (big thanks ) this has not been a problem yet.
When their dynasty stats are even and they do not need to show more like crazy I am not sure what will happen? EDIT: Sorry I forgot to say, I really like the graphs Bruno, they are very insteresting so thanks for working hard on them. bodisson-2 - Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:14 pm Ok Annie but I think we can have enough experience to know what we can do and to anticipate to go right for some hours. Do not make the hand break just after reset 
Difficulty is to precisly balance at the end (depend of our disponibility near before reset)
Maybe we can try to do a little more each days in order to avoid the steep slope(I hate roller coaster  )
However , I don't think september update change anything , it's just easier to point on and talk about now.[/quote] Jeanne - Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:00 pm
That is how most thinks - my crystal ball never worked so I don't know how many links will come out later therefor I only show what I am certain to get back, at the end of the day I check and maybe show 1 more with limit to balance and that is what I tell my members to do too so they wont end up negative.
They have the incentive to show more to raise their score to stay on top - I don't
IMO you're wrong - with the personal score being based on the minimum of clicks received/done the focus is on the balance not the number of clicks - let me quote from a mail I received this morning from 1 of my members - it is really about the new rank but goes for this too: Sent 09/10/09 06:50:00 I was thinking.....and that should scare you. The 550 average is the highest "rank" that one can get without actually starting a dynasty, (as I understand it). What incentive is there for people to get a better average?
.......... For the average member in dynasties not competing for top spot, reaching the highest rank is the goal - after that ... as he asks - what incentive is there to score higher (show more/click more)? hippie - Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:57 pm Jeanne, I don't think there is an incentive. That is why I don't set goals for my people anymore. My goal has changed from getting clicks to staying balanced. I just ask my members to give as much as they receive. If we move up the charts its good, if not, thats okay too. I find it is less stressful now. But, it still rewards you for being a good clicker because when you get more you can give more and therefore get a better score. Jeanne - Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:16 am
There is no goal to set  You find it less stressful - I find it very boring 
You don't get more, there are less links to click now than 1 month ago - keep an eye on the "clicks today" in the bottom of the left side menu - watch that number drop - depressing. I see more and more negative members in the alliance - a result of the less links out + some who doesn't understand the system and maybe also people don't care anymore - what's the point? Ferrari - Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:11 am The system is too difficult for me, and I'm already 4 years here, can you imagine what it is for new people ,especially if they do not speak English. And when you not understand the system , you do things wrong, you see it in alliance, all my allies have suddenly less members and lots of negatives. Total 381 members in alliance. Jeanne - Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:02 am Yeah 4 of my members has left Yarolds after the updates saying it's too much like work now and no fun. thepossum1 - Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:03 am Agreed---lots less fun these days. Also lost 2 more members in just the last few days. We all have RL stuff we'd been dealing with & coming to click was a nice escape from that even if it was difficult to make the time. Now, more are finding it isn't worth the effort--we're having to concentrate more on the "work" of balancing so it isn't as fun. The interaction with other players has been reduced because we're constantly searching for one more link just to stay even. Actually, for me, not a whole lot has changed--I'm still clicked more than I can find to click back--and I'm not lazy. I've noticed more Yer Hotel links creeping back in also which doesn't help. I know there are some who actually play the game--you know who they are because they've had the links for a long time, not just tossing them out there just to have a link showing so they can click on a page. I almost wish that there was a ban on any new hotels that were created since the updates to keep it honest, but that's not "fair" 
Oh well, I'm a diehard so you're stuck with me
jassej - Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:53 pm I say from first day that I dont laik last update. That now like work, I must balansed gained/ given, what fun? I am sure, much more members will leave yarold...... Jeanne - Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:37 pm
Ehrm I created a Hotel in Protest against the mandatory display on main .... because i have got so bored here I have actually started to play it a little (and a Zoo too) but I don't use it to just have a link - my Unicreature is still up as the main link
thepossum1 - Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:41 am Not a problem Jeanne--I'm just b*tching because I haven't got anything more fun to do--a link is a link  lol
Ferrari - Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:56 am
 you made me smile thepossum
Jeanne - Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:59 am LOL - yeah when bored the B*tching comes natural
Bruno73 - Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:15 pm Late answer(s)...
Some are blond, some don't want to understand, and some both...
No, each Valenth link is simply going to be clicked 5 times less than the MMC link.
They are now encouraged to change. The old system, based only on the clicks done, did not encourage at all link showing. So I really don't see why there would be less and less links shown now and I don't share this feeling. By the way, remember that the SumAvg (Done+Received) scoring system has been rejected because it would have made money rule. Now, with the MinAvg system, indeed crazy clickers are not rewarded if they are not crazy showers too.
Not only feeding the others but also balancing your dynasty clicks, that is showing links that your members don't show...
Nobody asks you to show more links than you can click, unless you want to have your links clicked more and that you buy credits for that, or as I just wrote if you want to balance your dynasty clicks. Again remember we have switched from SumAvg to MinAvg to prevent credits buyers to be ranked at the top. Less and less links shown and less and less clicks on Yarold? I don't think so and I would like some facts (dis)proving this. (RMV SumAvg is about 80000 and I'm pretty sure we didn't click and were clicked that much before the update) (Jeanne's SumAvg is about 3500 and I bet it was not that high before)
eirien - Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:14 am
I know no one asks me - but I am assuming our allies prefer to have as many links to click as possible? I'm merely explaining my personal thoughts in response to a comment that there seemed to be fewer links around. I have shown some extra links this week only because it suits me but not, as Stan said because 'if you don't your dynasty will lose'. I'm waiting for him to back up that statement so I can understand how my dynasty will lose by me not showing more links than I can click. As a usual rule of thumb I will show one or two links during the week when I'm working and perhaps more at the weekend. Yarold - Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:54 pm
its true, if my word is not enough i can dig some stats I also share though that its not easy to understand now Jeanne - Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:04 am
No for many it isn't easy to understand and that's why they give up and leave. Frustrations are running much deeper than you seem to be willing to realize
Mogman - Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:29 pm
Wow... This is just a big no. Imagine 10 people with 100 credits each, 5 have 10 valenth links and 5 have 1 myminicity link... In total each does 55 clicks with each link receiving 10 clicks... the valenth users are down 45 credits and the myminicity users are up 45 credits... The myminicity guys look bad cause they are sharing 1 link, the valenth guys are angry that they have lost so many credits so they lower their # of links to balance themselves while the myminicity guys don't have more links to balance themselves (unless they actually WANT to put that effort in of sharing 9 more links to balance everyone). I was gonna quote more but I don't care much about fighting word wars (I just want to click and be clicked). I will say this though, I have been here for over a year now and have ALWAYS only shared my 1 mmc link and the odd time shared extras just to get rid of credit build up (if any)... With this update I've noticed that I can click around 500 daily while only receiving 300-400 daily... I felt bad, so I shared a second link for 24/7 and noticed that its regularly breaking 600 (almost 700) daily in total received clicks... So I've doubled my efforts in dynasty and can't get close enough to balance more often than not. So I share a link in main with limited visits and balance myself in total there (often still losing out). This is in turn just stressing me out and REALLY making me lose interest in this exchange when I can easily just go to other sites with automatic visitors turn them on and not even think about them at all and still come out even/ahead... AND get THOUSANDS of clicks rather than 300-400. If it weren't for the fact that there are multiple games on this site (thus more unique visitors) I might have left Yarold's long ago... Right now I'm sitting on the edge of going back to 1 link and hording credits (maybe just throw the extras at dynasty tournaments/contests or something) or just quitting Yarold's altogether. This site has also been the most stressful to keep clicking due to the non automatic nature and has always been on the top of my list to stop using... This update is just making it easier to give up to be honest. Jeanne - Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:59 pm Yes and even when you do balance click for click you might still lose credits - if you show MMC's and click mostly Unicreatures you lose credits
DemonicJ - Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:14 am
Easy solution. Total clicks done & received divided by 4. Why 4? main & dynasty, clicked & received. Some can show more than they click, some can click more than they show. Yarold - Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:36 pm How dividing something helps? It makes formula from simple sum, something that is even hard to name. Jeanne - Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:27 pm
I agree you'd still need calculator to figure out what you will score - it has to be easy again to make it fun - I still say let's go back to dyn-ave but make some kind of members limit for when the ave is calculated so we don't give the smallest the advantage - that was the problem then (the only problem that I am aware of). And as for fewer clicks: A lot of those who has left were the dynasty- game players, members with 10 "fake" mmc's - we now have a lot of Action link holders (Uni-creatures has spread a lot) members on main doesn't get the CARE-mentoring as members in dyn's does maybe too many has care turned off or lost and doesn't see the links? I know there is a "How to" but how many do you think read it? Wolverines - Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:18 pm
hmmmm so that is why i turned my hotel link on the other day in dynasty only and got 2 people to follow it through outta of 25....so another word i got 2 clicks for 125 credits(if still 5 credits per click) why should i show that link anymore in main or dynasty...and i wont no matter what....it isnt just a problem with new people/main it is everywhere.... Xazy - Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:03 pm
Your Hotel link probably only had 2 follow-ups because Yarold's timer doesn't match Yer Hotel's timer. I often click a Yer Hotel link which tells me I can't visit right now. Sometimes because I have visited recently, and sometimes because the hotel is full. I always follow up on Hotel links when I can - it's just not always possible. I think many others have the same problem. Jeanne - Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:04 am
The Hotels are a bit more special: 1; if someone else had a hotel out up to 6 hours before you put yours out then members that doesn't have a Hotel can't give you a visit tho' they can click a Hotel every 2 hours. Those that do have a Hotel of their own usually use their visit quote as soon as they can give a visit so only few will have one visit to give at the moment you put your Hotel out. . 2; if you only have higher standard rooms - people without hotels can't give you a visit. Annie - Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:29 pm
Yeah, I have that problem not being a hotel owner. I either waste my click when theres no room and can't click anyones else link, or I end up clicking a few when I can't phsically make a new visit. I try so hard not to click them if I know I can't make a visit but when you snap link a group and they pop up it's like doh, sorry. Bruno73 - Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:05 am Graphics updated here. [ Added: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:24 am ]
This example is somehow silly. Of course if you consider 10 members and 1 MMC link, that link will receive no more than 10 daily clicks... no surprise! Now here is the right example: 11 members with 10 credits each. Members with 1 MMC link will be clicked 10 times while members with 5 Valenth links will have each of their links clicked twice, that is 5 times less as I first wrote here. You added then that you cannot receive more than 300/400 clicks on your MMC link (more if you show in Main, isn't it?), in this case you have no interest in clicking more than 300/400 links... so I don't see where is your problem! We are all supposed to be here to have our links clicked, that is the goal to achieve and in order to do that we are supposed to click as much as we want clicks back. That is also what the new scoring system is supposed to reflect: how many exchanges are done. If you click more than you can receive, that is useless for you as you mentioned. Why would you be rewarded for that? Nothing illogical here to my view. As you stated, there are other ways to have a MMC link clicked, so I wonder why you've been on Yarold for so long if it's not to have yours clicked here... The answer is maybe because you like to click, in this case why not add some links to your account to allow the others to click you as well in return... that seems sound to me. Jeanne - Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:40 am Face it Bruno: Your idealistic dream is not working. People are fleeing dynasties and Yarolds - judging by the alliance and the drop in clicks done the past 2 months I'd say about 20 members leaving every week on the alter of balancing clicks which has ruined the fun in the dynasty game that btw is the reason why many mmc link holders has stayed here ... not for the clicks received. Ella - Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:18 pm
It all has become so calculated. Let's stop balancing. Let's forget the clicks received, count only the clicks done Lazy member, buys credits clicks 0 but shows 10 links...YES, clearly a feeder profile. But those links are for their own dynasty AND allies to click. Then it is solved because : Active member, clicks 900 but only has 1 link becomes happy again since pressure/frustration to add more links /click less to balance the 900 clicks made is no longer there. I think there have always been slumbering 'feeder' members around, long before the big discussion about feeder dynasties. Now those serve for a general good purpose. Bruno73 - Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:10 pm
What is not working?? You give absolutely no argument...
You were saying exactly the same before the last update... Now some facts: "183172236 (clicks) since 2008-07-12 ", that makes about 383,000 daily clicks in average. This morning at reset I saw 360,000 clicks done, not bad for a Sunday and not much less than 383,000 anyway. If as it seems there are much less registered members, that is actually a great performance. I would like if Stan could give the exact numbers of clicks done everyday since 2008-07-12, and we would see if the last update had a negative impact or not. I don't believe so. Jeanne's SumAvg = 3231. Did you click and were clicked that much before the update? You didn't reply that one... Face it Jeanne: you have way more clicks to do now
Alba - Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:35 pm
Nothing is working, Bruno, but seem that you are the only that can't see it...
I agree with Jeanne, this was your dream, so, I understand that you are happy with that... Bruno73 - Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:37 pm Again no argument given... Maybe "nothing is working" in your dynasty, but in Real Mini Village everything is working very well! Btw it was not my dream, I preferred the SumAvg system - easier to calculate, simpler to understand - but there were many complaints against it. Alba - Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:13 pm
In my dynasty? lol Today at reset: min yday --> #3 dyn min yday --> #3 sum yday --> #3 dyn sum yday --> #4 min mem avg --> #4 and I will remember you that we are the smaller dynasty on top
Jeanne - Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:11 pm Bruno just look at what pops up when you pass the members online point in the menu: 426 members online for the 20:00 HH - these days we can barely squeeze above 200 members online for any HH. Yes I probably did that amount of clicks before too it was just never reg. cause clicks given weren't in the stats - fact is also I did more just 2-3 weeks ago and my numbers are going down every day. And as Stan has already answered you: its true, if my word is not enough i can dig some stats who needs the numbers we can all see and feel there are less to click. It was your dream - you were the one coming up with this score system and suggesting it to Stan. |
